One Mega Churches Mega Opportunity!
Ed Young, Jr. at Fellowship Church mentioned over the weekend some astonishing statistics that they’ve “revealed” from their own church.
8,200 Individual Children Attended in the past 10 weeks
160 Kids attended EVERY week
30% of those who attended in 10 weeks attended less than 5 weeks
His emphasis in his “talk” (his words, as opposed to “sermon”) was that PARENTS need to “wake up” and place church on a higher priority than sports or cheer or fishing. He also said that “if you don’t give” you’re not a member of Fellowship, and “if you don’t serve” you’re really not a member.
I’m thrilled that churches are evaluating their programs (look at the survey FBC Denton, TX is doing at www.fbcd.net for insights into WHAT to ask!) and purposes!
But what they DO TO FIX the problem demands the same measure of attention. For instance, in explaining these statistics last night, Ed Young, Jr. did so via video. In other words, he encouraged his hearers to DO (attend church) what he himself was only virtually doing…ironic if you think about it!
Keith,
Thanks for the link to FBC Denton, that’s given me lots of ideas!
Is there a way we can view the message he gave?
Your tone seems to be disparaging at the end, can you clarify why?
Dave Wakerley
Dave Wakerley
June 29, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Thanks for asking, Dave! Well, let me try to explain a bit!
I’m sitting in the audience last night and there begins an AMAZING worship experience (even a Genesis song, “Another Day In Paradise” by Phil Collins) but then we are led to a taped sermon without any sort of set up…no segue…just three large screens with the pastor beginning his talk. There is a live “taped” audience on the screen and then there is us, the actual audience. When the taped audience claps, I hear in the LIVE audience where I am sitting a smattering of clapping. I have this cognitive dissonance since I don’t know if I’ve completely suspended disbelief that this is a REAL sermon, I mean, do we bow our heads when the taped person prays? Would I do that when a TV pastor prays? Evidently, the audience just naturally did this. I have to say that I felt really odd sitting there…it is a stretch for me to believe that this taped message in any way makes my attendance at church more meaningful than staying at home (or in my hotel room) watching it on the TV. But what made me really cynical was what happened when Ed Young Jr. was praying on the screen (yes, I did bow my head, but then I began to look on the stage). The REAL, actual Ed Young, walked out and when the lights came up, and the “amen” was stated, the LIVE audience applauded because they were seeing the REAL Ed Young.
It was creepy! What was the audience “saying” by its clapping? “Yeah! You’re HERE!!! You Exist!” Or were they saying “Great Prayer” since what just transpired was in fact the end of a prayer…but do we humans do that in church? Clap at the end of a prayer?
So “disparaging” might be too strong a word, because, candidly, I really didn’t know what to think about an audience that is so significantly transfixed by both the person (pastor young) and the setting (taped sermon) that it ACTS like this is REAL. It would be too harsh to criticize Ed Young’s sermon because he cannot do what he does without a willing audience! But, then again, maybe this is what people want! The auditorium was certainly packed!
But here’s the thing. They don’t ADVERTISE that Ed Young, Jr. WOULD or WOULD NOT be there! So you go HOPING that he will be live, but are basically stuck with the congregation-of-the-willing and there is a powerful social constraint compelling people to accept what is going on…and that strikes me as deeply troubling. It’s “group-think” that makes this ok.
So when the virtual Ed Young, Jr. in his “talk” states that parents need to “wake up” and attend church I’m thinking, “does he understand the irony of HOW he is asking what he is asking?” He’s TAPED! He’s literally not HERE and he’s saying, you be here! Now, given THAT logic, I should be able to mail a picture of myself to the church for them to sit in the pew so that I would in fact BE THERE!
I also notice that the “live” children’s ministry at that church is morphing into a “virtual” and taped one over the next few months (it’s curriculum is “Elevate!” and this is probably a requirement in order to make it commercially successful)…but again, are kids going to let people get away with making them DRIVE to a place to watch church? I mean, going to a movie once in a while is a treat. Going to “movie” church once a week is a pretty tall request. Remember, Ed Young, Jr. was preaching to parents this weekend to “WAKE UP” and make attendance MORE consistent!
By the way, I don’t know if this sermon series “One Prayer” is available online but judging from the many aisles in the bookstore at the church…sermons certainly are available via DVD!
keithdj1
June 29, 2008 at 9:04 pm
“…research suggests that being involved in an extra-curricular sport does more to lower the rate of sexual activity among teenagers than does attending church.” — Greg Boyd”
Of course, that is just one part of raising our kids to know God and to follow Jesus, but it is a challenge that families and churches need to rise to. And until we do, should pastors be too upset when the kids are playing soccer on a Sunday?
Jeff Gill
June 30, 2008 at 3:01 am
Oops. I forgot my closing tag on that link.
Jeff Gill
June 30, 2008 at 3:04 am
I go on vacation for a week and find Keith cracking on another mega-church! Darn-it, Keith!!!
I’m remembering your post on mirror neurons: http://childrensministryandculture.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/mirror-neurons-and-childrens-ministry/
I’m not sure that there’s any different in educational value between the typical live adult sermon and a televised transmission of it.
Certainly there’s a large difference between hands-on children’s learning and passive learning in front of a screen. However, before I’d offer any critique, I’d want to know the duration of the DVD clips. Are they short enough to promote a discussion? Or are they so long that they prevent relational learning.
Larry
Larry
June 30, 2008 at 8:45 am
I’m fairly certain that this message that Ed gave was part of the One Prayer experience that is currently going on: http://www.oneprayer.com
Participating churches could pick from a variety of messages that were pre-taped and I’m guessing that Ed wanted Fellowship to feel the entire experience–just like other churches that were using his message.
I’m not necessarily weighing in on the value of the video message, just trying to bring some understanding as to why they used this particular taped message.
Jason
July 1, 2008 at 7:17 am
thanks Jason! That’s helpful, and the web site does in fact share the same visual elements, though Ed Young Jr. directed his congregation directly at their OWN church rather than this world wide effort by Lifechurch.tv in Edmond, OK.
Keith Johnson
July 1, 2008 at 7:51 am
Keith,
Interesting post. I did want to comment on the Elevate curriculum from Fellowship. I use it for 2 of my children’s ministry programs, and have for the last 2 years. My use of Elevate is for small (15-20 kids) mixed age group children’s church programs. One is at our satelite, and one is during a traditional worship service with low attendance. Elevate allowes for a lot of relational learning. Of the 1 hour time frame for my programs, the kids are “watching a movie” for only about 15 minutes. This includes the telling of the Bible story and a skit that relates to the Bible story and the points for the day. The 2 songs included each week are wonderfully animated, with the words, and provide great worship. The rest of the content – main point, Bible verse and review are all interactive. The are no different than using Power Point screens, except there is wonderful animation. The small group time is highly relational and interactive. My point is that Elevate allows me to present an excellent, relational program using 1 teacher.
Laura Carr
July 1, 2008 at 9:29 am
Hey Laura, 15 minutes seems just right to me, though some may disagree for kids so young. I think a church that PRODUCES material often uses it differently than the way they sell or recommend for various reasons.
keithdj1
July 1, 2008 at 10:03 am
I’m saddened by the fact, that as Christians, there is this constant need to criticize each other. Ed Young has been a close friend of mine for 15 years and it is painful to see him, and Fellowship Church, unjustly critiqued in the manner you have done (especially drawing such strong conclusions after viewing just one weekend service). I am always open for discussion, but comments like these, that are just thrown out there on blog sites for public reaction, often do more damage than building up.
Keith, how many times have we spoken in the past (many). Why not come to me first?
Mike Johnson
July 1, 2008 at 12:41 pm
There is a fine line between evaluation, analysis or intellectually honest feedback and criticism. Criticism is an emotionally harsh assault. THAT is what I do not intend to do by illustrating and owning up to my PERSONAL response to, yes, that ONE service. While I’ve attended about 4 services before (one with Ed live, one with a substitute, this one with a combination of real and virtual Ed, and another with just video) I merely state my own personal opinion and feelings.
This is not an instance where I had “aught with my brother” so I didn’t feel that Matt. 18 applied and thus did not speak to you first. Blogging is an imprecise format! But like light in a dark room that causes things to scurry, it often has a very ennobling affect. It is just MY impression, and while I can state the same thing anonymously or not even mention the church or pastor by name, it seems to me that public scrutiny (searching study, inspection or investigation) is precisely what the Bible seems to allow (1 Cor 3:13 anticipates a test of our works, 1 Thess 5:21 says to test everything and hold on to what is good). What we are NOT allowed to do is test the Lord.
But you bring up a good point. “Unjustly Critiqued” would be deeply harmful and I cannot think that I’ve actually done that, have I? Ed Young, Jr. anticipates this sermon series to be widely distributed and therefore it is open to many who are watching/hearing for the first time. His format is spoken and thus it is public. There is no expectation of privacy here. Don’t you guys in staff meeting evaluate your weekend service? I’m certain you do; we did at Wooddale and every church I’ve served. So it must have occurred to you that my observations would be felt by some, didn’t you? And thus you felt it was not a significantly important insight that would cause you to change your format I guess. Ok, that’s fair, but you then cannot say that this observation is “unjust” can you? You certainly have a response, don’t you? That would be extremely helpful for me to know and for anyone else who feels creepy bowing our head or clapping when a TV screen man tells us to. I don’t do that in a movie theater and so it feel funny doing that in church.
I know full well that throwing comments like these in a forum like this creates tension but this is, to put it candidly, something that we should all do more of rather than less of.
Churches constantly ask for feedback. They routinely do it to themselves! I like you Mike, and have been significantly challenged by your measured excellence and long-term commitment to Fellowship Church. But my feedback is not intended to inflict pain, but to merely share what I frankly feel is often avoided or hidden and that is HONEST INTELLIGENT FEEDBACK!!!! My points raised are open for evaluation THEMSELVES! My wife disagrees with my perspective all the time. Heck, my father-in-law feels that to question the sermon is to “raise your hand against the Lord’s annointed”. He feels that no one should “roast” the pastor and he has told me so. I love him and we disagree…strongly. But his generation and others have an unwaivering loyalty bordering on blindness that NEVER evaluates and AVOIDS an editorial process that you and I as writers and speakers BEG to be given!
You ask, “why not come to me first?” But that seems odd since I didn’t think of you at all when writing this post. I was sitting in big church as a visitor and was speaking thus. If I was a reporter who operated under Columbia School of Journalism standards then a polite phone call to Ed Young indicating the slant of a particular upcoming article would be apropos. But this context is designed to simply state opinion in light of culture and as such the Openness is helpful. Strike down my observations…PLEASE! I was simply stating how I FELT about going to a physical church to watch a video sermon. It was wierd…for me! It was incongruent with the command given to physically attend church…for me!
Children’s ministry and culture was designed to make personal observations public. Heck, even Larry Shallenburger, my friend and co-blogger, disagrees with me strongly at times! Tenderness to criticism is what I am prone to so I will not allow myself to not illustrate my critique. To just say, “this is stupid” or “what an idiot” or “only an imbecile would like such and such” is for me clearly crossing the line and I’ve tried to avoid that. BUT, the points I raise are open to feedback and as such are prone to perspective and all things nuanced!
But the ubiquitous rise in the use of video in the church today is a NEW TREND that I find to be uncritically accepted without asking the people it impacts…THE AUDIENCE! Of which, I was one over the weekend!
We are professionals, Mike, and as such our dialogue, like most “encyclicals” or “cannons” or church summits of the past, make us ALL grow up in the faith in a way that makes what we do EFFECTIVE and produce real fruit when we cut the pretension and speak to the real formats that we choose to deliver the timeless message!
I have to say that my discomfort over the weekend DID allow for God to work in my heart personally. I was challenged to do something about my own life and family! That was a direct result of the sermon! God has often made the foolish things of this world confound the hoped-to-be-wise!
keithdj1
July 1, 2008 at 1:22 pm
We critique ourselves all the time, and honest critique is designed to sharpen and make better. I guess my confusion is how sarcasm (”You exist, you rock star you”, or off hand comments about the number of DVD’s available in the book store, etc.) along with words like “creepy” are critiques that will sharpen us and make us better. They sound like criticism to me (which you can’t mask just by saying its how you “feel”).
When you are in the public spotlight (like Fellowship church is) you get, and most often welcome, evaluations that can better you as a leader and as a church. Unfortunately, because of it’s presentation, this was not one of them.
You compared our relationship to one of an unattached reporter reporting news about a story. I’m sorry you think of it that way.
Mike Johnson
July 1, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Hi Keith,
I am a member of FC and ran across your post…
I don’t see anything wrong with stating how you felt during the service when Ed was praying via video and how that for you was weird. However, I felt like you were criticizing FC and Ed Young for its use of a video message that encouraged people to attend Church when Ed was not there. Also, there is a distinct tone throughout your post and comments (words like “rock-star” and “many aisles in the bookstore”) of being cynical or critical.
Personally, my life has been blessed beyond measure by the growth I’ve experienced at Fellowship Church. This is directly related to the vision that God has given Ed, and that he has cast to the staff. They have the guts to be creative and push boundaries in order to reach more people. If watching Ed via a video message enables him to take a much needed break in order to be a more effective in his ministry, then BRING IT ON! If an interactive kids video message captures my 2 daughters attention, teaches them about Christ, and then can be used to teach kids all over the world about Christ, then BRING IT ON.
Yes, this is your blog and you can say what you want. Yes, any service at any church is open to public critiquing. However, why can’t we, as Christ-followers, CHOOSE not to do that stuff and instead use our blogs and our statements to build one another up and truly unite?
John Bartlett
July 1, 2008 at 2:32 pm
The number of DVD’s in the bookstore was not offhand, it is stating where I felt one could indeed get a copy of the sermon. I didn’t intend to make that one rise to the level of a value statement. “Rock star” was probably too cute by half…touche. I’ll delete that from the post above.
I’m sorry that this observation was not helpful for you or your church.
But I in no way compare our “relationship” to a reporter…I am comparing the format (blogging) that is different than a reporter’s standards (governed by the guild that controls THAT medium) thus what would be a point of order (calling you first) in one medium is less important in another.
I am struck by your courtesy and candor. It is your conclusions with which I disagree and you the same with mine. That is professionalism at its best, I’m sure, and it only strengthens us and should never weakens us.
Keith Johnson
July 1, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Has anyone asked the AUDIENCE how THEY feel?
keithdj1
July 1, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Keith, I appreciate your edits to the original post.
Larry Shallenberger
July 2, 2008 at 9:34 am
“…civility has a way of creeping into daintiness. If our pastors lose their sense of combative humor we may grow more polite…but less honest!”
Keith Johnson
July 2, 2008 at 12:41 pm
check out Matt McKee’s observations on his blog!!! They’re Brilliant and coming from someone who has DONE video venues, they are also deeply credible! He concludes by saying, “Please keep as many live elements as possible for kids. It builds their imigination, their understanding, and I believe is just more effective.”
read it all here http://www.mckeelive.com/2008/07/hot-topic-church-and-video.html
Keith Johnson
July 2, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Regarding the Wall Street quote… I understand the need for truth telling. James, however, wrote about the “gentleness of wisdom.”
There might be place for combative humor, but Keith I’d suggest that the limits of the written word on the Internet opens one up for being misunderstood.
Larry Shallenberger
July 2, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Gentleness in written tone wraps itself in many mantles, one of which is cowardly timidity. Persistence can and should overcome any misunderstanding. When “ideas” shift the topic into the realm of “feelings” I am ill equipped.
Keith Johnson
July 2, 2008 at 2:20 pm
You just called me a coward in very gentle terms.
Larry Shallenberger
July 2, 2008 at 2:42 pm
au contraire, mon frere! I just want to have the last word : )
Keith Johnson
July 2, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Keith you seem to dislike 252basics and Elevate what exactly is a good curriculum in your eyes.
I have used both and find both have their place and both need to be adapted to fit the service and belief structures of each church.
samluce
July 2, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Wait a minute. I did not attempt an evaluation of Elevate since I’ve never seen it. I was only suggesting that the FORM any curriculum or sermon takes should be human not video. We’re talking about children here and what decent parent would plop their child in front of a mechanically one-dimensional learning source for an extended period of time?
252 Basic was reviewed earlier based on my view of two lessons. But my grid upon which I evaluate is pretty precise and deeply held.
I watch the audience!
I watch the kids and try to guage life change as exhibited by a growing friendship or relationship with Jesus. Period.
Keith Johnson
July 2, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Wow, I think I have found a new favorite website!
I came across this blog researching another topic for a graduate class I’m in called “Issues Management”. I’m in the process of researching for a paper which discusses how an organization effectively or ineffectively managed an issue that it faced. The issue I am addressing in my paper is:
A small church (160 members) had historically (10-12 years) operated a bus ministry to transport children and teenagers from underprivileged areas of town to and from church functions on Sunday mornings, Sunday evenings, and Wednesday nights. This outreach ministry had become part of the “identity” of the church/congregation and a bragging point of those involved due to the number of children they had been able to impact. Unfortunately, due to an increasing level of disciplinary problems with the “bus kids” combined with an increasing level of volunteer fatigue the church leadership made the decision to discontinue this ministry. The decision became a major issue to long time members of the church due to it being “what we are supposed to do”.
That is the issue my report will cover. My question for Keith, Larry, and anyone else who would like to respond is this; are you familiar with any academic or journalistic studies which deal specifically with a similar topic or a topic that might be closely related which I can refer to as supporting data? If not, I understand because I have searched for a few days now and haven’t been able to come up with much. If you do know of something however I would greatly appreciate the guidance. Thanks so much and have a blessed day.
PS
All of that being said…I really enjoy watching Ed Young, Jr.’s program on television and really appreciate his willingness to use technology in spreading the message of Christ, however, there are times that we in the church feel we need to “dress up” the message in some sort of exciting presentation/show in order for people to be drawn by the Holy Spirit into a relationship with our Creator, and I’m not sure we should feel that way. I in no way am questioning Pastor Ed’s motives, but I think I would have to agree with Keith…I think I would have felt a little weird (while acknowledging that feeling could simply stem from tradition).
Randy Burns
July 23, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Hey Randy! I’ll also respond via email directly to you so you get this, but I appreciate your interest of study. What you describe is the topic of a Masters’ Thesis or even a PhD but I don’t find anything in the literature describing the nearly ubiquitous experience of a church program becoming it’s identity.
This is probably due to the fact that all churches have “traditions” that mark their identity or distinction. It is interesting whether this is in fact a North American thing given our broad use of models and marketing that compete for people in the pew. I don’t see this internationally, at least I don’t notice it as much.
Thanks, by the way, for the compliments and the great observations! We seek to make children’s ministry less silly and banal and more intellectually and spiritually alive!
Keith Johnson
July 23, 2008 at 2:06 pm